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J.O. Aho
Guest
|  Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| Hadron Quark wrote:
| Quote: | ray <ray@zianet.com> writes:
On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 22:04:15 +0000, Kickass Joe................... wrote:
They don't dare make a move again.
It will always be the people who push the envelope, take
chances and have the intellect that will run Linux distros.
It's a unique bunch and always will be.
I've maintained for a number of years that anyone with room temperature
(farenheit) IQ can run Linux. It's no more difficult than MS - just a
little different - makes you wonder.
This is clearly not true.
|
At least among my friends and family this isn't true and all of them I would
class as basic end users, they have adopted GNU/Linux and loves it without
knowing how to tweak kernels or setup web-servers.
| Quote: | Linux is generally a lot harder to setup and configure for the average
desktop user : if it wasnt it would be more widely adopted.
|
Hmmm... turn on the computer, tray out on CD-Rom, insert CD and close the try,
let the computer boot the GNU/Linux and install it, after a handful easy
questions and 20 min later it's up and running, compare that to having to wait
a hour or more for microsoft. Even simpler to install is QNX demo.
The problem lies far in the different direction, in the pockets of some
wealthy people, they get discount for each OEM version of microsoft the bigger
volumes they do preinstall on their computers, so each machine they install
GNU/Linux on makes all the microsoft machines more expensive to sell.
There are also those quite shady contracts between microsoft and the computer
company which dictates that they have to install microsoft on all their
computers (confirmed by microsoft-sweden a couple of years ago).
| Quote: | Yes, some people are lucky with their HW and their distro choice, but
generally not.
|
If you buy only hardware that has just been released really recently and the
company don't release any hardware specifications that can be used for the
drivers, then you are a bit unlucky. Companies do save a lot money on Linux
drivers, as they don't have to make themselves, as they seem to be all to
comfortable letting the end users do that for them.
On the other side, microsoft drops support for older hardware, try to use an
old ISA based network card with microsoft-vista, even if you find the driver
on the net it won't work as you have the wrong version of microsoft. At the
same time, compare the amount drivers you get with microsoft with the amount
of drivers included in a GNU/Linux dist.
//Aho |
| | Back to top | |  | Michael Heiming
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| In alt.os.linux Kickass Joe................... <roddy9@verizon.net>:
| Quote: | Have you seen the help desk traffic for MS Windows?
The newsgroup help groups, the IRC help channels?
It seems most people can't even run Windows. There is
|
And have problems tying their shoe strings, and can't even
handle the simplest waste separation. There is nothing new
about it or your trial flame attempt...
[..]
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 334: 50% of the manual is in .pdf readme files |
| | Back to top | | | A. Nonymoose
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:40:39 -0600, Beowulf
<beowulf@wayoftheancients.trail> wrote:
| Quote: | Install and configure for linux is easy, given a user friendly distro
(Ubuntu, Linspire, Xandros, and others)-- AND if installed to a blank hard
drive without MS-Windows in the picture. Problem is most linux installs
are commonly done as dual boot, installing alongside Windows which makes
it tricker, but only if wanting Windows to co-exist.
|
Actually, I found the install, even with a dual boot, to be incredibly
easy.
Where I find Windows to still be easier for me is in getting and installing
new software. With Windows, it's download, and double click. With LInux,
it's download which package: RPM, deb, gz, etc, etc.? Then, where am I
supposed to install *too*? (I still haven't figured this one out), then
how to actually install it - some of them even need to be compiled.
Luckily, the Suse YAST helps out a lot, but that is only a crutch - I'll
still need to learn how to install new software on my own. JMHO. |
| | Back to top | | | J.O. Aho
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| A. Nonymoose wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 19:40:39 -0600, Beowulf
beowulf@wayoftheancients.trail> wrote:
Install and configure for linux is easy, given a user friendly distro
(Ubuntu, Linspire, Xandros, and others)-- AND if installed to a blank hard
drive without MS-Windows in the picture. Problem is most linux installs
are commonly done as dual boot, installing alongside Windows which makes
it tricker, but only if wanting Windows to co-exist.
Actually, I found the install, even with a dual boot, to be incredibly
easy.
|
It can be difficult for a novice to make space for GNU/Linux on the hard
drive, as microsoft out of default takes the whole hard drive and it's how
people seem to have things, one huge slice.
| Quote: | Where I find Windows to still be easier for me is in getting and installing
new software. With Windows, it's download, and double click. With LInux,
it's download which package: RPM, deb, gz, etc, etc.? Then, where am I
supposed to install *too*? (I still haven't figured this one out), then
how to actually install it - some of them even need to be compiled.
|
Most of todays distros has an installer that allows you to specify what you
want to install, and it downloads it and all the dependencies. The user don't
have to know where to download, don't need to double click and don't wonder
why the program don't work as there is some missing dll's.
| Quote: | some of them even need to be compiled.
|
But installing same program under microsoft requires you to download and
install gcc and then figure out how it works and finding all the headers and
libraries needed, at least GNU/Linux distros in general has those installed
for you.
| Quote: | Luckily, the Suse YAST helps out a lot, but that is only a crutch - I'll
still need to learn how to install new software on my own. JMHO.
|
Why use YAST then? There should be more intelligent installers from a such big
company like Novell.
//Aho |
| | Back to top | | | Wretched Soul
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| SINNER wrote:
| Quote: | * Wretched Soul wrote in alt.os.linux:
BlackTopBum wrote:
[...]
Uh, ever hear of dependency hell?
Yeah, it went out with the Dodo. DH is realativley uncommon with todays
package mangement systems, When was the last time you tried Linux, RH
4.2?
Hmm, I must have been too stupid to
avoid that one. Guess I should get a high paying Linux guru to help
me out next time.
Or you could try a recent Distro.
[...]
|
I'm sorry, my bad. I should have tried Ubuntu like this dude:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=226660
He got it figured out way back in May.
or maybe
http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2006/06/the_new_rpm_hell_or_why_yum_an.html
Hmm, this guy says "Aside from redesigning the Linux kernel, there
are a number of software solutions. The following outlines a solution
using available software."
http://www.germane-software.com/~ser/Files/Essays/RPM_Hell.html
This guy way back in January has fun with about 21 files he figures
out for fun and profit:
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gvix/archive/2006/01/dependency_hell.html
Wikipedia figures the whole issue was figure out way back in October,
er well sort of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell
here's a couple of more at no charge --
http://lwn.net/Articles/198455/
6.3.2 APT upgrade troubleshooting
Package dependency problems may occur when upgrading in unstable or
testing as described in Upgrading, Section 5.3. Most of the time this
is because a package that will be upgraded Depends on a package that
is not yet available. These problems are fixed by using
# aptitude dist-upgrade
If this does not work, then repeat one of the following until the
problem resolves itself:
# aptitude -f upgrade # continue upgrade even after error
... or
# aptitude -f dist-upgrade # continue dist-upgrade even after
error
Some really broken upgrade scripts may cause persistent trouble. It is
usually better to resolve this type of situation by inspecting the
/var/lib/dpkg/info/packagename.{post,pre}{inst,rm} scripts of the
offending package and then running:
# dpkg --configure -a # configures all partially installed
packages
If a script complains about a missing configuration file, look in
/etc/ for the corresponding configuration file. If one exists with an
extension of .dpkg-new (or something similar), mv it to remove the
suffix.
Package dependency problems may occur when installing in unstable or
testing. There are ways to circumvent dependencies.
# aptitude -f install package # override broken dependencies
An alternative method to fix these situations is to use the equivs
package. See /usr/share/doc/equivs/README.Debian and The equivs
package, Section 6.5.2.
CVS, Wed Aug 16 09:30:24 UTC 2006
While it looks like it's greatly improved, "relatively uncommon" is
not a way I would describe it. |
| | Back to top | | | Beowulf
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 09:41:49 -0500, A.Nonymoose inscribed to the world:
...
| Quote: | Where I find Windows to still be easier for me is in getting and installing
new software. With Windows, it's download, and double click. With LInux,
it's download which package: RPM, deb, gz, etc, etc.? Then, where am I
supposed to install *too*? (I still haven't figured this one out), then
.... |
I think that will improve with linux. There is a new packaging system,
this might be it
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2307
or something like it, that will improve the ease of installing software
with linux. I know when I installed e.g. Google Earth on my linux system
it was painless. Similar for Mozilla Suite, or Unreal Tournament; very
fluid and easy. More has to go similar routes instead of tarballs and rpms
and so on, which can be intimidating. |
| | Back to top | | | BlackTopBum
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream [OT] |
| Wretched Soul was all like, you know, and then said something like a ...
| Quote: | I'm sorry, my bad. I should have tried Ubuntu like this dude:
|
Here's a testimony you can put in your pipe and smoke:
I've haven't had even (1) single error of any of those type at all
- ever - since using switching to Linux. That would be since Mandrake
Linux 7.2 - release date was 10/30/2000. For more on ML release dates read
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mandriva .
--
BlackTopBum
Second childhood !?
I'm not done with the first ! |
| | Back to top | | | BlackTopBum
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream |
| Alan Connor was all like, you know, and then said something like a ...
| Quote: | On alt.os.linux, in <zf57h.4941$T_.1152@trndny06>, "Kickass
Joe..................." wrote:
article not downloaded:
http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/README.offline
[BlackTopBum ]
[BlackTopBum ]
[BlackTopBum ]
[BlackTopBum ]
[BlackTopBum ]
[BlackTopBum ]
My my. Look at this pathetic troll make the linux runners above dance
like puppets.[...]
Alan
|
Alan, Ever occur to you that I MIGHT just want to have some fun with this
bunch of fools?
Socking news you should know: I don't get each day asking myself how I can
live to satisfy Alan Connor.
--
BlackTopBum
Second childhood !?
I'm not done with the first ! |
| | Back to top | | | Wretched Soul
Guest
| | Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why Linux will never be mainstream [OT] |
| BlackTopBum wrote:
| Quote: | Wretched Soul was all like, you know, and then said something like a ...
I'm sorry, my bad. I should have tried Ubuntu like this dude:
Here's a testimony you can put in your pipe and smoke:
I've haven't had even (1) single error of any of those type at all
- ever - since using switching to Linux. That would be since Mandrake
Linux 7.2 - release date was 10/30/2000. For more on ML release dates read
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mandriva .
|
I had a Mandrake 10 install that went pretty well on a old PC. I
don't remember anymore what problems I had, I think the usual sound
problem. In the end it worked ok, but I lost interest in trying to
update the browser etc. I put Ubuntu 6 on the same PC and another
computer. To Ubuntu's credit, it worked with an old scanner that MS
would not without buying a driver. I did have to reload Ubuntu after
an update hosed the whole system however. And it wasn't the update
that Ubuntu had previously had problems with. But there is a lot to
like about Ubuntu.
I've also put on Linspire, Freespire and PCLinux and some old distros
years ago.
Linux has gotten better. I just dislike hunting around for correct
files to install and things that I've solved in the past. Seems to
take forever and never seems to be quite the same way twice. I
suppose if you do it often you become familiar. It's not bad if you
want to avoid the worsening MS license situation, I just don't have
any illusions about it's trouble areas. I don't see what point the
Linux community gets in pissing off mainstream users. It just seems
like the old Unix attitude to me. Fair and honest comparisons between
distros also seem to be lacking. They are either full of too much
bravado or seem afraid of pointing out shortcomings. To each is own,
but a zillion distros is just ego talking.
Some people don't seem to have any problems, I suspect that is still a
minority however when it comes to mainstream users. I have Linux
guru workmate. He can get anything working on Linux, but it
frequently takes awhile. I never had Windows or Novell problem I
couldn't fix. It usually is just a matter of how much time you have
and how many people you can find with the same problem.
WS |
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